Why 8?
- November 09, 2008
- Category: Daily Diary
- (22) Comments
When it comes to children, I am ferociously conservative. I believe in firm boundaries, loving guidance and, of course, strong families. It is no easy task to raise a responsible, healthy, happy child. It requires self sacrifice and commitment.
My ideal world would have children raised in homes where the parents themselves are a strong unit and each of them in turn gives of their strength to their children within a loving home. That said, why does the legal definition of family in 2008 automatically mean a man and a woman? Because it did in the past? Does that not negate the many gay families who adopt children every day and who live together in committed, yet not legally sanctioned unions? Why are we denying their children the right to grow up in a home where their parents are married? Don’t we want our children to have strong, family centered homes?
“To have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, in sickness and health, for richer or poorer, until death us do part.” Think about those words and the commitment behind those words. If you are willing to stand up with your partner and say those words, don’t you think you should be allowed that choice?
Why would we deny the joy of marriage to an entire segment of our population? Why would we deny our children the right to be raised by loving, legally married parents? Why deny the legal benefits of marriage (and divorce) to people just because they are of the same sex?
I envision a society where every day we move towards inclusion, where our differences become our strengths and our children are allowed to grow up without any stigmas attached to their parents. Strong families, strong children.
I know many of you disagree and I’d love to hear your arguments. I welcome discourse on this subject both negative and positive.
And once again, I do consider myself a Christian but I don’t view Christianity as an exclusive club. I view it as a religion of tolerance, love and acceptance.
What a great outlook, and a respectful, and tolerant attitude you present in this post.
I hope that this does start a thoughtful debate on the topic. And I look forward to reading the comments that everyone is going to make.
I feel that a family can be a group of people who choose to be together, love, nurture, and respect each other. Maybe it is time we redefine the boundaries.
Living in Canada, I had just assumed that this was the norm. Maybe I am wrong, was it not everywhere?
Jen
Date: November 09, 2008
You won’t here arguments from me. I’m totally for it
)
Date: November 09, 2008
Hey Mountain Woman! I’m a plain-spoken lady so I’ll just spit out my two cents.
For one, marriage is defined only as a relationship between a man and a woman. If gays want to form unions, that’s up to them, but it isn’t accurate nor fair to call it marriage. It may be a matter of semantics, but there’s an important physical, legal, and spiritual meaning to marriage.
As for being tolerant– with all due respect, I think you are confusing tolerance with inclusion. Christians are the most tolerant people on earth, but they are not the most inclusive, and that’s Biblical. There are standards, otherwise Christians wouldn’t be Christians, and there would be no distinction.
For example, you may tolerate the guy who comes to your door. You don’t shoot him, but you listen to him and what he has to say, etc. However, do you invite him into your home to sleep in your bed, eat your food, play with your children, and benefit from the fruits of your labor? Gosh, no. That’s silly!
Christians aren’t out killing gays because they hate gays, nor should they. But they do not have to include them in their activities of they so choose.
You say you are a Christian. OIf I may be so bold to ask– on what basis are you a Christian? Why are you a Christian? I assume that you would say, as most others would, you are Christians because Christ died and rose again for you. And how do you know this? Why, it’s recorded in the Bible, eyewitness testimony. OK, so that same Bible that you claim gives you your religion, also says that homosexuality is sin before God, and He cannot include them in His kingdom. He said it, I didn’t. God (and Christians) certainly do tolerate gays, but they, according to the standards in the Bible, re not included. For a Christian to create ways to include a sinful and abominable perversion (God’s word, not mine!) is sin, too.
What I am saying is that there are standards and there is a right and there is a wrong. Standing up for something right does not make you intolerant.
I hope I’ve explained myself clearly. It’s kind of hard to cram things like this in a tiny comment box. If you are a Christian, then you have the responsibility to seek God’s face and look into His message (the Bible) to see what He says. Because in the end, He’s the one who will call the shots, and we are not going to be judged according to how tolerant we were, but by how holy we were.
Date: November 09, 2008
Rebecca, Thank you for visiting and leaving your thoughtful comments. I appreciate all you have to say and I am glad to have a differing viewpoint. It is only through civilized discourse on a difficult subject that we can begin to bridge our differences.
I’ll try to answer your questions as to why I am a Christian in a different post.
Thank you for being a plain spoken lady.
I especially appreciated your differentiation between “inclusion and tolerance.”
Date: November 09, 2008
I agree with your sentiments. This is not something that should be put to a ballot. This should be decided in the courts and eventually the people will get used to it. There was a time when it was illegal for Blacks to read and it was illegal for blacks and white to marry.
We can’t wait for attitudes to change. We need to legislate change by using the court system. People when change when they are forced to.
Date: November 10, 2008
I have an award for you over at my blog, check it out.
Date: November 10, 2008
I can’t believe that in 2008 we are still having this debate. With so much hate in this world how can love ever be wrong… people need to focus their self righteous anger in a direction that’s productive.
I’m afraid I have trouble being respectful and calm on this topic…it affects too many people I love and care for and it’s about as unchristian as I can imagine. People can sugarcoat it all they want, but to mandate something based biblical belief that not everyone believes in and then act as if others are wrong because they don’t fall into line is unacceptable to me.
” If gays want to form unions, that’s up to them,” This is hardly the case in most states. Gay folks don’t even get that much respect for their relationships….little is left “up to them” as you say, Rebecca.
It’s people like you who decide what you think they should and shouldn’t be able to do based on your religious views. That is wrong in my book. It’s reduces their relationships to “less than” in too many ways to count.
For the record, people that are gay don’t want to be “tolerated” by people like you. They just want to live in love and raise families with the same recognition and legal supports that you and I have access to.
I am slammed with stuff I have to get done today, but thank you for bringing up this topic. I hope to get back to it later today.
Date: November 10, 2008
I need to be clear that in my previous post when I said , “It’s people like you who decide what you think they should and shouldn’t be able to do based on your religious views. That is wrong in my book. It’s reduces their relationships to “less than” in too many ways to count.
For the record, people that are gay don’t want to be “tolerated” by people like you. They just want to live in love and raise families with the same recognition and legal supports that you and I have access to.”
I was addressing Rebecca, not Mountain Woman.
For the record, I think there’s something obscene in spending $73 million on Prop 8. People like Jen Lemen struggle everyday to make a difference in the lives of people who need help and our Christians “waste” precious dollars that could save a life.
Head over there and help this woman who demonstrates real Christian values.
http://jenlemen.com/blog/?p=544
Date: November 10, 2008
I could not agree with you more. Any loving and healthy relationship deserves the same rights as the next in my opinion. I know several amazing couples who are married in their hearts, so why shouldn’t they have the same rights my husband and I do? Great post!
Date: November 10, 2008
The Bible also says that children should be stoned if they’re disrespectful of their parents, that it’s okay to have slaves, that it’s okay to have more than one wife, that it’s okay to hand your daughters over to a mob to be raped in order to save a couple of angels from the same fate, that it’s okay to kill others in the name of the Lord because of their wicked ways. It also says that woman should wear their hair long and never show their ears and that men should wear their hair long as well.
I could go on with more examples, but I won’t. I think everyone gets the drift. I must admit it chaps my posterior when people pick and choose quotes from the Bible to justify their stance on issues. I’m 99.9% sure that these same folks don’t follow EVERY RULE the Bible spells out….only those that serve their own personal agendas.
Can you say: Hypocrite??
Date: November 10, 2008
Ah the love and tolerance that comes flowing from the haters…
“anonymous,” have you ever read the Bible? Like, the letter to the Romans?
Date: November 10, 2008
That is a wonderful post Mountain woman and yes I find it hard to stick to my guns so to speak, when it come to this matter. I live in CA and I voted yes on 8, Why? I don’t believe it is about rights, I believe it is about “marriage”. I agree they can be a family, and have “unions”. Marriage was created by God, I am positive since he says being a Homosexual is a sin that marriage would be out of the question. I voted how I think christ would have voted.I do not hate Gay people, I love everyone and I do not profess to being a perfect chirstian but I do my best to folow christ and do what I think Christ would do.
P.S. Anonymous, Grow a back bone! If you are going to post something like that at least have the courage to post your name!
Date: November 10, 2008
I need to say that ” anonymous” is most likely
anonymous because he or she is gay and unlike a straight person has more to lose if outed on a website. It a sad truth!
Straight people have no idea what it’s like to live in fear of losing everything you love if you reveal who you really are…
Imagine that life for a minute…better still think about all the places you talk about your life freely, who you date, who you’re married to, even where you went last weekend. Think about what your life would be like if everything had to filtered.
Hiding…it’s a crappy way to live.
Date: November 10, 2008
I have no problem with people marrying who they want. Everyone deserves to be happy. I just pray that this debate doesn’t tear our country apart.
Date: November 10, 2008
Dori,
I do believe this issue will not tear our country apart. In fact, I think people will look back and wonder why in the heck there was even any controversy.
Date: November 10, 2008
To Rebecca: Yes. I have read the Bible and it says what you’re stating and it says what I stated. It is a book full of contradictions and double standards.
To Jamey: “Grow a back bone” really was uncalled for. The reason why I use annonymous is because when I do log in with my name my posts usually don’t go through. I’ve found through trial and error that by going anom I don’t have to repeatedly re-type my posts.
I am straight and believe that this world would be a much nicer and loving place if we would recognize each other as human beings rather than by gender, race or religion.
Date: November 11, 2008
I do not believe that this is a religious debate at all but one of equal rights in a system where marriage is also a legal union that carries legal responsibilities and consequences. While many gays wish to marry as an expression of their love and commitment they also want to have the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to the legal declaration of their unity. And unless we change the legal system I would like to think that in the 21st century equal rights are the rights of all.
Date: November 11, 2008
This is my first visit to this blog, and I’m really, really interested in this particular post! I am a conservative (politically) student (this practically doesn’t exist, by the way) and I’ve been talking a lot to other students who are, by default, very liberal. They have been very surprised by some of the issues I argue for or against, and though we never really agreed on a single thing, they were interested to hear things I said because I could argue clearly about what I was saying.
Similarly, I am really impressed by and respectful of the argument you set forth for gay marriage. That is one thing that I am more liberal on (and not in the typical ‘oh, im conservative economically/liberal on social issues’ kind of way). I suppose my generation has grown up with the gay rights issue more in the forefront of our minds. I personally think it would be extremely embarrassing for our generation to have had an amendment made to any of our constitutions (state/national) about gay marriage. I’m more in the mindset ‘if you let all these pathetic, selfish, immature, materialistic heterosexual couples marry and divorce over and over, why on earth could we not allow gay marriage?’
And, in the post following, when you define yourself as a Christian, I thought you put forth a very poignant declaration. In this day and age, it is not easy to feel that secure in your religion, and yet still calmly state your opinions on social issues.
Way to go.
Date: November 12, 2008
I think M.Gandi said it all..
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi
Date: November 13, 2008
What about taking states out of the marriage business. What if states granted civil unions (or call them whatever you want) to everyone, and that if you wanted to, you could also go get married in a church. Legally the state would join you for inheritance, pensions, insurance, etc. But then those who also wanted to marry in a church could do so. I think it is wrong to deny anyone the legal benefits and protections a “marriage” allows…
Date: November 16, 2008
Liz, I think your idea has lots of merit. A possible solution?
Date: November 16, 2008
I wanted to post only when this one had died down a bit. What came to mind the most from the comments, is what Elizabeth Harper said.
“For the record, people that are gay don’t want to be “tolerated”
I agree…Who wants to be just tolerated…
…would anyone want society to just tolerate them ??
Being tolerated is not much of an existence is it?…and a superior attitude from the one doing the tolerating.
I don’t have any problems whatsoever about churches refusing to do gay marriages. But Prop 8 is about laws.
Date: November 17, 2008